Are These Clutch Plates Good Or Bad?

[AKmotorider]

My 2007 YZ250F has been acting rather strange lately. It creeps forward in gear with the clutch pulled in and also doesnt want to shift sometimes, like the clutch doesnt want to disengage all the way or something. And yes, Ive made sure that the cable is properly adjusted, its not that. It is NOT slipping, but rather the opposite I guess. From what I've heard, that is usually caused by a notched out basket. However, I just took the clutch all apart (keep in mind the previous owner replaced the entire clutch assembly with a Hinson one, so nothing Im talking about is stock) and the basket is surprisingly immaculate. Not even the slightest mark can be found on the basket teeth...things, if you get what i mean. The Inner hub has very VERY slight notches in it, practically unnoticeable unless you look really closely. Youd almost need a magnifying glass. From what Ive learned something so faint could not be causing an issue. The pressure plate is also basically perfect. When it came to looking at the plates, however, they were not as perfect (I think). All the steel plates are blue and tan in some spots. On the frictions I noticed deep and ragged grooves on the edges of a couple of them, while others had none. Some of the plates seemed dryer than others. Also, the springs were surpisingly pink on one side of all of them. What does this mean? Do they get that color when they go bad, or did hinson just paint them like that? Hopefully you guys will be able to give me a better idea on this. Remember, i dont want to replace this stuff if i dont have to, but I also want to be able to shift. Here are the photos. Could they be causing my not-being-able-to-shift and creeping forward issue? Thanks.

 

[Mihylo33]

The steels dont look good at all, they may be warped....if your steels look like that then maybe your basket and hub are notched...how do they look?

 

[bobkyle2]

What oil are you using? How old is the cable?...

Clutch cable could be stretching under pressure... And then come back in spec when you release it.

 

[SRAD97750]

Not to be a jerk or anything, but, I'm not suggesting it anymore... I'm telling you.
If those plates lie flat and are not visibly warped then... They are not this issue... Plates can only slip when worn out. All this clutch basket talk makes no sense either...

*A dragging clutch that gets worse when warmed up is a CABLE ADJUSTMENT.*
Be it in the mechanism or the cable is stretching...
Trust ME, I fought this problem for a year...
cable was broken INSIDE the lead end, stretching when used...

 

[AKmotorider]

Not to be a jerk or anything, but, I'm not suggesting it anymore... I'm telling you.
If those plates lie flat and are not visibly warped then... They are not this issue... Plates can only slip when worn out. All this clutch basket talk makes no sense either...

*A dragging clutch that gets worse when warmed up is a CABLE ADJUSTMENT.*
Be it in the mechanism or the cable is stretching...
Trust ME, I fought this problem for a year...
cable was broken INSIDE the lead end, stretching when used...

If you really think so. I cant remember when exactly I installed the motion pro cable, but I know its new, I can still remember installing it when my stock cable broke a couple months ago. Ive stared at it so many times and analyzed i'd be really surprised if it was the issue. With the clutch cover off, I watched it engage the mechanism and make the thing go in and out too, if that makes a difference. Ill look into it more this afternoon and give you an update...

 

[SRAD97750]

I can still remember installing it when my stock cable broke a couple months ago.

This is good info. Perhaps the cable IS perfect.
The rest of the mechanism may be whats out of adjustment.
Looking at your actual clutch mechanism, there isn't much to go wrong. Some have adjustment at the pressure plate. Yours does not. This means, all the tension/adjustment lies solely within the cable and perch.
Here in this image (22) is a ball bearing. This ball bearing can crush slightly and cause a hanging clutch.


Not sure how your perch adjusts, but it could be slipping threads when used. The cable may be visually perfect, but stretch inside the sleeve or lead ends.
If one strand slips in it's lead crimp, the cable will "twist stretch," which is when part of the wire bundle is allowed to move while the other wires bear all the tension. This leads to a quickly compromised cable.
In a cable, the braiding makes the individual wires are longer than the assembled cable. So if wires are allowed to slacken and allow others to "straighten", the cable gets longer.


So...
1. Clean/Check perch hardware and adjusting components.
2. Remove cable completely, straighten, and examine.
3. Check the ball bearing (22) while you have the clutch apart.
4. Re-assemble, re-adjust, pray...
5. Get back to us. We are here to get you back on the bike without purchasing expensive items that may not be the issue.
-BIG DAN

EDIT: Springs in forks, shocks, and clutches are painted to designate compression values. (I.E. harder, softer, faster, slower)

 

[jackson409]

Not to be a jerk or anything, but, I'm not suggesting it anymore... I'm telling you.
If those plates lie flat and are not visibly warped then... They are not this issue... Plates can only slip when worn out. All this clutch basket talk makes no sense either...

*A dragging clutch that gets worse when warmed up is a CABLE ADJUSTMENT.*
Be it in the mechanism or the cable is stretching...
Trust ME, I fought this problem for a year...
cable was broken INSIDE the lead end, stretching when used...

So Dan, you're saying a notched basket or hub will not cause a sticking clutch? I am 100% sure it will. I bought my bike with this very issue and replacing the notched basket was the only fix. I am also sure he isn't describing a slipping issue, what he is discribing is more of grabby clutch.

If your fibers were dry, this would also cause a grabby clutch. Try soaking them in oil overnight before reinstalling them. Maybe the previous owner that installed said Hinson clutch never soaked the fibers before installing like you are supposed to do.

 

[SRAD97750]

Totally possible! Notching can definitely cause a clutch to bind! But notching is caused by the movement of the discs at the current wear condition. As they wear down and the notches start to bind, it can cause BOTH a slip or a grab. Although, slippage is far more common to notching (pressure plate not returning, notch friction overcomes spring pressure), grabby clutch could happen. But for it to grab, the notching would most likely cause slippage first. My thinking being that your clutch lever is stronger than the springs, so slippage would occur first...

...the basket is surprisingly immaculate. Not even the slightest mark can be found on the basket teeth...things, if you get what i mean. The Inner hub has very VERY slight notches in it, practically unnoticeable unless you look really closely. Youd almost need a magnifying glass... ...The pressure plate is also basically perfect....

This leads me to believe he has no notching.

 

[jackson409]

Totally possible! Notching can definitely cause a clutch to bind! But notching is caused by the movement of the discs at the current wear condition. As they wear down and the notches start to bind, it can cause BOTH a slip or a grab. Although, slippage is far more common to notching (pressure plate not returning, notch friction overcomes spring pressure), grabby clutch could happen. But for it to grab, the notching would most likely cause slippage first. My thinking being that your clutch lever is stronger than the springs, so slippage would occur first...




This leads me to believe he has no notching.

See, in my way of thinking and my issue was the exact oppisite. since the clutch always rest with tension on then when you pull the clutch lever before starting it, the basket wouldn't let the the fibers release fully so they are still partially engaged caused a grabbing sensation as if the clutch lever wasn't fully engaged and I may be wrong but I don't think I am it is the fibers that cause the notching on the basket and the discs cause the notching on the hub. Besides he already said he has no notching so that lead me to the next conclusion of dry fibers.

 

[AKmotorider]

So Dan, you're saying a notched basket or hub will not cause a sticking clutch? I am 100% sure it will. I bought my bike with this very issue and replacing the notched basket was the only fix. I am also sure he isn't describing a slipping issue, what he is discribing is more of grabby clutch.

If your fibers were dry, this would also cause a grabby clutch. Try soaking them in oil overnight before reinstalling them. Maybe the previous owner that installed said Hinson clutch never soaked the fibers before installing like you are supposed to do.

That one thing I noticed. The fibers were surprisingly really dry, but the steels were not...dont know how that works. Somebody also told me on another forum that if the steels are blue (which partially they are, near the teeth) it can cause them to warp which would then lead them to prevent the clutch from disengaging all the way. They dont look visibly warped; unless of course, we're dealing with thousandths of an inch here.

 

[AKmotorider]

This is good info. Perhaps the cable IS perfect.
The rest of the mechanism may be whats out of adjustment.
Looking at your actual clutch mechanism, there isn't much to go wrong. Some have adjustment at the pressure plate. Yours does not. This means, all the tension/adjustment lies solely within the cable and perch.
Here in this image (22) is a ball bearing. This ball bearing can crush slightly and cause a hanging clutch.
View attachment 9633

Not sure how your perch adjusts, but it could be slipping threads when used. The cable may be visually perfect, but stretch inside the sleeve or lead ends.
If one strand slips in it's lead crimp, the cable will "twist stretch," which is when part of the wire bundle is allowed to move while the other wires bear all the tension. This leads to a quickly compromised cable.
In a cable, the braiding makes the individual wires are longer than the assembled cable. So if wires are allowed to slacken and allow others to "straighten", the cable gets longer.


So...
1. Clean/Check perch hardware and adjusting components.
2. Remove cable completely, straighten, and examine.
3. Check the ball bearing (22) while you have the clutch apart.
4. Re-assemble, re-adjust, pray...
5. Get back to us. We are here to get you back on the bike without purchasing expensive items that may not be the issue.
-BIG DAN

EDIT: Springs in forks, shocks, and clutches are painted to designate compression values. (I.E. harder, softer, faster, slower)

1. forgot to mention that oem clutch perch is also brand new. I checked it and everything is on there correctly.
2. did that and found nothing unusual.
3. Ball bearing is not there, and I can see a tiny tiny imprint for it about 1mm wide on the parts 18 and 23 from the diagram...dont know the names. remember its not the oem assembly, its hinson so the ball is apparently much much smaller compared to the diagram...unless theyre all that small. and also is part 23 supposed to freely pull out of the hole? because it did. and if i dont have the ball bearing can i still ride? it may take a while for that thing to get here.

 

[SRAD97750]

Oh snap! No ball bearing!!! YOU MUST have a ball bearing, otherwise those two parts just grind on each other. Hopefully that's not why the imprint is so small!
Without a ball bearing in the pushrod mechanism, you can't adjust the clutch properly.
Order that bad boy! Let us know how it goes.
The ball bearing allows the pressure plate and (18) pushrod to spin with the engine, while the long push rod remains stationary.
It's totally cool for the rod to pull out freely, it is just an idle pushrod that transfers cable motion to the pressure plate. Take some photos! -BIG DAN

 

[AKmotorider]

Oh snap! No ball bearing!!! YOU MUST have a ball bearing, otherwise those two parts just grind on each other. Hopefully that's not why the imprint is so small!
Without a ball bearing in the pushrod mechanism, you can't adjust the clutch properly.
Order that bad boy! Let us know how it goes.
The ball bearing allows the pressure plate and (18) pushrod to spin with the engine, while the long push rod remains stationary.
It's totally cool for the rod to pull out freely, it is just an idle pushrod that transfers cable motion to the pressure plate. Take some photos! -BIG DAN

These are the pics. Is it supposed to look like this? Look closely and you cann see the tiny imprint for the bearing. Also, isnt the clutch cover supposed to have a seal or gasket or something? Mine has nothing, not on the cover or on the case. Nothing has ever leaked out before though. There a strange white paint on the outlining of the cover, as you can see.

 

[SRAD97750]

yes sir! You are missing the ball bearing. I suspect it crushed down and disappeared into your crankcase. Out with the oil!
Order the bearing! You are almost ready to ride!!!

The white "paint" is most likely what's left of the old gasket, or they used gasket maker. (rtv)

 

[AKmotorider]

yes sir! You are missing the ball bearing. I suspect it crushed down and disappeared into your crankcase. Out with the oil!
Order the bearing! You are almost ready to ride!!!

The white "paint" is most likely what's left of the old gasket, or they used gasket maker. (rtv)

I hope this is whats causing the problem. Are these parts worn down at all, and is that why the little holes are so small or are they supposed to be like that? And thank you for replying so early, its 5:30 am and I was just about to start my rebuild. Also, would it be ok to ride like this without the bearing for an upcoming race this sunday? I cant afford to miss it and that part will probably get here afterwards.