Potential reason for 2T extinction

josmoloco

josmoloco

jeremymach2015:
the italian manuafacture TM needs to import bikes to america, realy advanced technology on their bikes

all they make is 2 strokes, and they rev past the moon man
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Um.... uh... yeah....
They make 4 strokes as well... They are very nice bikes, but not really any more advanced than others. actually many consider them behind in many areas because they lack the r&d money of larger European companies such as husqvarna or ktm.... also, they dont rev higher than other comparable bikes from other companies:thinking:
450Fi_EN.jpg
 
jackson409

jackson409

James:
If you're referring to equal displacement (250F vs 250), then yes. But if you're referring to how the AMA classes the bikes (250 vs 450F), then no.

Correct.

:noidea: Debatable
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I thought the AMA changed the rules and now 250 2st can run in the 250f's class?



Not to much to debate here, no oil filter is require on a 2stroke and Less parts to replace when it comes to rebuilds. No timing chains, cams, or valves. so how is that NOT cheaper :noidea:
 
1

14D

2smoke:
Yes James I know this is a double post. But I felt it was worthy of its own thread.

After doing a little digging around the 2 stroke powered bikes are not and have not been banned. However....... I did find and read some interesting reasons why 2 stroke powered bikes do not race in PRO MX & SX AMA/FIM sanctioned races. Here are some of them

When the 4T bikes where first introduced they were sorta klunky heavy machines. But Yamaha, took a chance and started major R&D on the 4T machines and started winning races. The big 450 powered machine were just out classing there older technology 2T brother. So the saying what ever wins on Sunday is sold in large volumes the following pay day. The other 3 Japanese manufactures started R&D on there 4T machines and they too started winning races. Once again who ever wins on Sunday sells the following pay day. So now you have these new technology 4T machines out in the public market that are just simply out selling the 2T machines. If I was a motorcycle manufacturer and I made both machines and one was clearly out selling the other. I would drop the smaller sales machine turn that money into more R&D to the better selling machine.

So based off of this guys opinions (factual or not) We the consumers (and Pro racing) have driven the 2T machine to near extinction. Based off of what I have read the 4T machine (it kills me to say this) is the more powerful machine. Does this mean the 4T is better? Well....... I certainly dont think so. I think that the advent of the new shiney machine that won some races is what drove this to be the way it is. I mean who doesnt want new stuff, the latest and greatest. The only way that the big Japanese 4 will start up 2T manufacturing plus the required R&D to make better 2T machines is to buy new 2T machines. Now some of you purists that will only ride a certain color machine (yep Im guilty too) when it comes time to buy a new machine you may have to buy something that isnt in your color. To the best of my knowledge the only 2T machines that are still being developed and manufactured is KTM, ATK, and some other Euro manufactures. But if you want Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, and Kawasaki to start making your 2T machines again............. We the consumer are the only ones that can get them back. By buying a new 2T machine from somebody else. This will increase the market and drive the Japanese markets to manufacture 2T machines so they can be competative and make more money. Unfortunately the change will probably come about long after Im able to ride off road anymore.

But it is up to us the dyed in the wool 2T riders to make this happen.
So it pains me to say that my next bike will either be a new (newer anyway) 4T machine, or a new (newer) orange 2T machine. Or maybe an ATK 2T.
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Ehh NO. If you go by classes(like pro displacement rules classes) then yes, a 250f is more powerful than a 125, 450 than a 250. I mean no shit, I'd hope something twice as big is more powerful. And you've gotta look at it this way, The only company that's putting ANY sort of R&D towards 2t development is KTM, whom if you look at it, actually isn't as likely to be able to afford MASSIVE research projects that could make the 2t great because, they're smaller than the jap companies. Like Kawasaki, you think Kawi you think dirt bikes, quads, motorcycles right? Well that's a slim piece of their pie. Kawasaki heavy industries makes TONS of stuff, including aerospace stuff, while KTM just makes bikes(and the random awesome car:P) so they just don't have as much money to throw at it. So really you should find it pretty impressive that an engine that's using technology from the late 80's/early 90's can be competitive with something that's had billions of R&D and is using some of today's tech.

josmoloco:
Um.... uh... yeah....
They make 4 strokes as well... They are very nice bikes, but not really any more advanced than others. actually many consider them behind in many areas because they lack the r&d money of larger European companies such as husqvarna or ktm.... also, they dont rev higher than other comparable bikes from other companies:thinking:
450Fi_EN.jpg
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That bike looks cool.

James:
If you're referring to equal displacement (250F vs 250), then yes. But if you're referring to how the AMA classes the bikes (250 vs 450F), then no.

Correct.

:noidea: Debatable
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ehh if you race hard then the 2t is easily cheaper(try do a whole rebuild on a 2t then a whole rebuild on a 4t and tell me whats cheaper), and that's to say the head Doesn't need work.

And for woods, they're both bout the same, unless your talking small bore woods 2t's that get rung out allot(logging roads, desert riding), then you may be giving a top end more often.

jackson409:
I thought the AMA changed the rules and now 250 2st can run in the 250f's class?
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Local yes Pro no.

:panic:
 
woodsrider

woodsrider

"a 250f is more powerful than a 125" not true a 125 produces more horse power that a 250f where it makes the power is different but it still makes more that a 250f
 
James

James

Staff member
woodsrider:
"a 250f is more powerful than a 125" not true a 125 produces more horse power that a 250f where it makes the power is different but it still makes more that a 250f
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Like I said in the other thread, if that were actually true people wouldn't be trying to get the AMA to change the Pro Rules to allow the 2 strokes to have more displacement. You're right though in that their "power" is in different locations. :thumb:
 
Y

yamadogyz

Hey, lets put it this way. In my mind, I think nothing of the power diffrences between a 2t and 4t, I believe that they are eaqual machines with eaqual power but delivered in diffrent ways. (Shut up! I know one has more horse, thats not the point!) In conclusion, a 250 is a 250 and what ever your faster on, then you should ride. I can garentee I would throw down faster laps myself on a 4 stroke over a 2 stroke, so as a competeitive aspect, I'd buy a 4 stroke. If a diffrent ride is faster on a 2t over a 4t then he should too be entitled to his machine of choice. I know I sound crazy but hey, just my theroy.:noidea:
 
D8K

D8K

woodsrider:
this is the only 1 i could find its the 2002 models as u can see the 125 peaks higher that the 250f
YZ125_250F_hp_comparro.jpg
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Things have changed since 2002, and the YZ250F is UNDERPOWERED compared to the other 250F's. I had my 05' KX125 Dynoed With a 134 kit, PC works pipe, Shorty, porting job, milled head, race gas, and a good aftermarket filter. It made about 38 HP WHICH IS incredible for a 125. But a 250F STOCK makes about 36-37 HP and one with alot of engine mods can make in the 40's for HP figure. Yes a 125 can be made competitive against a 250f, but 250f's are faster now, AND IT IS A FACT ALTHOUGH I'M A DIE HARD TWO-STROKE RIDER- LOOK AT MY SIG. All of the development has gone towards four-strokes :rant:.
 
josmoloco

josmoloco

I got to ride a 09 te250 (310cc kit) today back to back with my 200 in the woods..... Lets just say the 310 felt like a dog in comparison... But the huskys rider may have been better than me :devil::devil::devil:
 
cleonard

cleonard

Everyone seems to be focused on peak horsepower. The peak number makes very little difference. It's torque that accelerates you and four strokes have a big flat torque curve. Two strokes have a peaky one. Even if a two stroke has more torque at one RPM it's that flat torque curve that will get you to the next turn quicker.

One thing about two strokes is the powerband makes you feel like you are going faster. At least it seems like it to me.

In reality the rider is more important than the machine.
 
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