Help me prove my friend wrong

[James]

Because AMA doesn't compare them they race 125s with 250fs 2ts are quicker they just don't have constant power like a 4t does you have to build it up

Like I said above (I think Jos did as well), the AMA amateur rulebook allows 250 and 250f's to be raced together. The AMA Pro rulebook doesn't though.

See, much to the contrary of the AMA, it's not fair to put a bike with almost half the CC of another in the same class.

I think the problem they face is, what's considered fair?

If you take the rider out of the equation a 250 (against a 250f) might win, however there's a lot more to it than just raw power/torque. For example at the local tracks, kids on 250's are routinely getting beat by 250f's. Plus if an (under-powered) 250f can have a faster lap time than most of the pro 450f class, is the bike (power) really that much of the overall equation?


7 guys on 250F's had lap times under 2:15, but only 4 450F riders did.

2011 High Point National
250 Class Qualifying Source

1. Blake Baggett 2:12.768
2. Tyla Rattray 2:13.294
3. Darryn Durham 2:13.403
4. Dean Wilson 2:13.612
5. Ryan Sipes 2:13.860
6. Broc Tickle 2:14.191
7. Eli Tomac 2:14.544
8. Nico Izzi 2:15.212

450 Class Qualifying Source

1. Ryan Villopoto 2:11.719
2. Chad Reed 2:12.872
3. Kevin Windham 2:14.319
4. Mike Alessi 2:14.596
5. Ryan Dungey 2:15.032

 

[CDA]

Who gives a crap out all this banter, I have a 250 2 stroke and it has all kinds of torgue. You just need to know how to tap into it...

 

[justincr250]

Who gives a crap out all this banter, I have a 250 2 stroke and it has all kinds of torgue. You just need to know how to tap into it...

Yea pull in the clutch rev it up and dump it lol

 

[CDA]

Yea pull in the clutch rev it up and dump it lol

Wrong.

 

[Mojavekid18]

The difference is not in the torque, its where the power/torque is at. Contrary to CL adds all bikes have powerbands, its just that 4t's have a very broad powerband where as 2t's you have to keep wound up. 4t's give better traction and require less shifting because of this because you can lug them down low and don't have to shift all the time to have any power

 

[josmoloco]

The difference is not in the torque, its where the power/torque is at. Contrary to CL adds all bikes have powerbands, its just that 4t's have a very broad powerband where as 2t's you have to keep wound up. 4t's give better traction and require less shifting because of this because you can lug them down low and don't have to shift all the time to have any power

but, check what rpm the power comes on and goes off on a 250 vs 250f....

 

[2smoke]

I hate it when this topic comes up. A 250 2t and a 450 4t make similar (close) torque at the back tire. They just put there torque to the ground differently. A 4T machine makes good torque pretty much everywhere. The 2T starts making good torque at the high end of the bottom of the power band pretty much all the way to just right before the bottom of the high end of the power band. I know that doesnt really make sense unless your a true 2T guy. And it also depends on what bike it is and how its set up. My bike starts to make good torque right as it comes up on the pipe untill about the middle of the power band.

So lets make it simple. 2T machines and 4T machines make good torque where they are tuned to make good torque at. An experienced rider will make those machines perform where they are supposed to.

Oh and for the Ding Dong that said 4T machines removed the 2T from the SX and MX areas. You are sadly mistaken. We the consumer removed the 2T from the racing circuits. Ever hear the saying what wins on Sunday sells on Monday? Well when 4T machines started becoming popular and able to keep up with the 2T machines in racing. Somebody won a few races, and Bam the 4T machines started selling better. Natural progression with better performing engines, and suspension aftermarket performance parts etc started to show up. And now the 4T machines are very popular and do some things better than a 2T machine. But lets face it. 2T technology has been around for a very long time. Its probably as good as it will ever get untill somebody makes a Fuel injected version along with a small nuclear device. But I will say this you take a rider that is competent on a 2T and competent on a 4T. Ricky Carmicheal for example. Id be willing to bet the his lap times are so close together on either bike that it just doesnt matter.

 

[josmoloco]

I hate it when this topic comes up. A 250 2t and a 450 4t make similar (close) torque at the back tire. They just put there torque to the ground differently. A 4T machine makes good torque pretty much everywhere. The 2T starts making good torque at the high end of the bottom of the power band pretty much all the way to just right before the bottom of the high end of the power band. I know that doesnt really make sense unless your a true 2T guy. And it also depends on what bike it is and how its set up. My bike starts to make good torque right as it comes up on the pipe untill about the middle of the power band.

So lets make it simple. 2T machines and 4T machines make good torque where they are tuned to make good torque at. An experienced rider will make those machines perform where they are supposed to.

Oh and for the Ding Dong that said 4T machines removed the 2T from the SX and MX areas. You are sadly mistaken. We the consumer removed the 2T from the racing circuits. Ever hear the saying what wins on Sunday sells on Monday? Well when 4T machines started becoming popular and able to keep up with the 2T machines in racing. Somebody won a few races, and Bam the 4T machines started selling better. Natural progression with better performing engines, and suspension aftermarket performance parts etc started to show up. And now the 4T machines are very popular and do some things better than a 2T machine. But lets face it. 2T technology has been around for a very long time. Its probably as good as it will ever get untill somebody makes a Fuel injected version along with a small nuclear device. But I will say this you take a rider that is competent on a 2T and competent on a 4T. Ricky Carmicheal for example. Id be willing to bet the his lap times are so close together on either bike that it just doesnt matter.

This is all
How much mx have you ridden

 

[James]

Oh and for the Ding Dong that said 4T machines removed the 2T from the SX and MX areas. You are sadly mistaken. We the consumer removed the 2T from the racing circuits. Ever hear the saying what wins on Sunday sells on Monday?

Exactly.

 

[Mihylo33]

This is all
How much mx have you ridden

I have ridden plenty of MX and trail....

 

[PALMER84ONE]

My balls have not dropped yet so I can't answer the question properly. After all, hire a teenager before they forget everything.

 

[KTMforlife]

Ok so my friend thinks he knows everything about bikes. He seems to think that 2ts have a ton of torque. I try to tell him that they really don't have torque they are built with little cylinder stroke witch causes them to have alot of rpms he must think that rpms are torque but if a 2t has so much torque then why do u have to get it to the topend for it to have power. So basically what I'm saying is 2t has no torque which is why the 4t is better on the track because it gets up and goes alot faster because it has so much torque

actually you are wrong CC for CC a 2 stroke will always have a LONGER stroke. not a shorter one. and CC for CC the 2 stroke will always have more torque and HP, due to the firing cycle. in a 2 stroke, the plug fires every time the piston comes to the top of the stroke. in a 4stroke, the plug only fires every other time the piston reaches the top of the stroke. for example: a 2 stroke goes fire, fire, fire, fire. a 4 stroke goes fire, exhaust, fire, exhaust. get it? so basically your friend is right

 

[14D]

I think the problem they face is, what's considered fair?

If you take the rider out of the equation a 250 (against a 250f) might win, however there's a lot more to it than just raw power/torque. For example at the local tracks, kids on 250's are routinely getting beat by 250f's. Plus if an (under-powered) 250f can have a faster lap time than most of the pro 450f class, is the bike (power) really that much of the overall equation?


7 guys on 250F's had lap times under 2:15, but only 4 450F riders did.

2011 High Point National
250 Class Qualifying Source

1. Blake Baggett 2:12.768
2. Tyla Rattray 2:13.294
3. Darryn Durham 2:13.403
4. Dean Wilson 2:13.612
5. Ryan Sipes 2:13.860
6. Broc Tickle 2:14.191
7. Eli Tomac 2:14.544
8. Nico Izzi 2:15.212

450 Class Qualifying Source

1. Ryan Villopoto 2:11.719
2. Chad Reed 2:12.872
3. Kevin Windham 2:14.319
4. Mike Alessi 2:14.596
5. Ryan Dungey 2:15.032

Ahh but the point of my post, is that 250 2t's(MXers) are tuned to be snappy and have a narrow powerband. If you had a 250 2t tuned to have a wide powerband it could have the characteristics of a 250f while still having more power(albeit just as easily tractable) and lighter and yada yada everything that 2t's have on 4's.

 

[josmoloco]

Ahh but the point of my post, is that 250 2t's(MXers) are tuned to be snappy and have a narrow powerband. If you had a 250 2t tuned to have a wide powerband it could have the characteristics of a 250f while still having more power(albeit just as easily tractable) and lighter and yada yada everything that 2t's have on 4's.

Well, master tuner, get to work, because i will buy one when you make it

 

[James]

Ahh but the point of my post, is that 250 2t's(MXers) are tuned to be snappy and have a narrow powerband. If you had a 250 2t tuned to have a wide powerband it could have the characteristics of a 250f while still having more power(albeit just as easily tractable) and lighter and yada yada everything that 2t's have on 4's.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.


Oh and my post proves that Baggett is just and ANIMAL!!!